AI Talent, Nearshoring & Brazil’s Tech Boom: Insights from Tony Teshada | Nearshore Cafe

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**Brian:** Welcome everyone to another episode of the Nearshore Cafe podcast, where we talk about all things Nearshore. I’m your host, Brian Samson. Before we get into it, I want to thank our sponsor, Plug Technologies, Plug.tech. Plug is a great way to find talent all over Latin America for growing U.S. companies. If you’re interested in AI and how it connects to Nearshore, and the way Brazil is right in the spotlight, this is going to be a great show for you. Let me introduce Tony To Shara, a Nearshore CEO, and he’s an expert on all these things we talked about. Welcome, Tony.

**Tony:** Hey, thanks for having me, Brian.

**Brian:** Well, let me just get into it. You know, we’re in the age of AI, it’s coming in hot. Yeah, tell us more about what you’re seeing: some of the trends, types of clients you’re working with. How is—what does the world look like in your eyes?

**Tony:** Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, probably the last two years, I’ve been primarily focused on working with a lot of early-stage startups. And, you know, we both know that if you’re starting something in tech in 2024, it’s probably going to employ some sort of element of AI. And so, you know, I’ve been working a lot with a lot of machine learning engineers, language learning model engineers, because, you know, the reality is that there’s only so many of them to go around, especially in the U.S. And, you know, what we’re seeing is that a lot of the big, you know, ‘FAANG’ companies—the Metas, the Alphabets of the world—they’re paying big bucks just to keep them on salary. And so, you know, you have all these emerging startups who want to have elements of AI. And so, what’s been really helpful for them is thinking globally. And it does a couple of things: it’s really kind of opened up their talent pool because now they’re not constricted to, you know, around the corner. And they have access to higher-quality talent. And then, frankly, they’re not having to pay the quarter-million-dollar salaries annually, plus benefits, plus taxes, and all the other fun little things that people don’t think about. So, you know, places like Brazil, Argentina, and Mexico, they become the best bang for your buck.

**Brian:** Wow. You know, as you were talking about the compensation we’re seeing in the U.S., it sounds like a quarter million dollars a year is maybe the basement, and it just goes up from there. What are some of the big dogs paying?

**Tony:** Yeah, I mean, I’ve seen everywhere from, you know, 250 up to 350 for some of the, you know, real pioneer trailblazers. And then, you know, you’re adding on equity and additional benefits as well. So, I mean, it gets pretty expensive. And what’s funny is, I have a few friends who work in that space, and a lot of them don’t actually have too much to do, but it’s really more about keeping them on salary and on payroll so they don’t go to the competition, right? So, when I think about an early-stage startup and I only have so much runway to go around, right? My capital’s limited, I know I can’t afford those. And so, for the money that I might set aside for somebody in the United States, I can get two really amazing developers down in Latin America and get twice as much done, just as fast. So, you know, the way I look at it is when it comes to implementing AI, you have to be really fast to market. Because again, you know, we’re training algorithms, we’re building them, and that’s if we’re not just kind of piggybacking off of something like, you know, ChatGPT, which a lot of companies are doing right now. If you truly want to build a true algorithm, it takes time. And so, you know, speed is the name of the game right now.

**Brian:** Yeah, yeah. I want to dive into the talent of Latin America and Brazil, but before I do that, this was Election Week. And there’s impact to AI, right? We’re not going to talk politics beyond how it impacts AI, but the Trump administration, it sounds like, has less regulation around the AI industry. So, with a goal to make the U.S. more competitive with AI—you know, make sure the U.S. produces the leading companies. And the second is focus on energy. And you’re obviously in Texas, a huge energy state. AI eats up a lot of energy. So, if they—what was it, Microsoft that bought Three Mile Island? You know, so maybe I’ll stop there. How do the macro government economic decisions kind of fuel this AI wave?

**Tony:** Yeah, I mean, there’s probably going to be a lot of nuance to it. I don’t think we’re going to see a complete reversal of what the previous administration put in place, but I think you’ll see different types of regulations. I know, you know, the new incoming administration, Elon Musk is a very, very big advocate of it, so I think he’ll have a pretty strong, kind of, perspective on how things get shaped. And he’s very pro, sort of, free market when it comes to AI. So, you know, I think the short answer is that I think it’s going to open up some regulation. And frankly, if that’s the case, then you’ve got to strike while the iron’s hot. But I do think, you know, we’ll see some calibration as time goes on because we’re still learning about it, right? We’re only really two, three years into its heyday, and we’re still figuring things out. And, you know, we don’t know how restrictive or how open it’s going to get yet.

**Brian:** Yeah. As far as the types of engineers, you mentioned machine learning. I’m seeing these new roles, like Prompt Engineers. Do you think it’s a case of a great full-stack developer can quickly learn this stuff, or should they have an ML background? Any thoughts on that?

**Tony:** Yeah, no, that’s a great question. I’ve actually seen a real big progression where traditional data engineers have really kind of seen that transition into more like language learning model, machine learning. But absolutely, I think anybody, if you’ve got a solid Python background, for example, I think it’s a great opportunity to continue to upskill and learn your game. The thing of it is, when I think about full-stack engineers, it really does depend on what your core discipline is. If you primarily feel more comfortable on the back end and feel like, “Hey, I’m great at building architecture and things like that,” then I would say go for it. If you feel like, “Hey, I’m really more of a front end; I love designing things on the front end, user experience,” you know, that’s more of that kind of artisan that I always like to say. You have to really ask yourself, “Would I be happy moving to machine learning engineering?” Because there’s a lot of demand for it, but it’s not always meaning it’s going to be something that you’re going to enjoy as a developer. So, I think it really comes down to: do you like to build things? Do you like to design things? And then kind of go from there.

**Brian:** I also wanted to get your take, Tony. I think you’re more technical than most when it comes to those in the recruiting industry. How AI has changed the world for the life of a developer, you know, where before, they’re producing lots of code, maybe now it’s more editing, QA. What do you think?

**Tony:** Yeah, I mean, it’s changed the life of a developer, but it’s also really changed the life of a hiring manager and a founder. Because when I’m talking to a lot of people who are interviewing potential developers, some of the biggest concerns that they have is the potential of developers, whether they’re in San Francisco or Brazil or the Philippines, leveraging AI to produce their code and just kind of the level of protection there, right? And so, it’s something that I think is going to continue to evolve. I think that AI is going to certainly speed up the time to ship. I think it’s going to call for a greater emphasis on things like quality assurance, more user acceptance testing, things like that. Because I think the code can get shipped pretty quick, but if it doesn’t have a human element working through it, I think there are numerous failure points. So, what I would tell anybody who is considering hiring is that the development process itself, it’s just one component of it all. You really have to think holistically about, “Okay, am I really QA-ing this pretty hard to make sure that it’s working and I’m validating that sort of stuff?” The other thing we’re seeing too is just like the emergence of more tools that are testing code against AI to make sure, “Who actually produced this?” Right? Because there’s some thought of, “If AI is producing this code, is it still my intellectual property?” Right? So, I think it just creates some ambiguity there that people just—we don’t know the answer to that yet. So, I think there’s a lot to still be figured out.

**Brian:** Yeah, that’s a great point. I think it also ties in with the new administration. J.D. Vance has talked a lot about open sourcing and creating more open collaboration with this code. But then again, who owns it? Right?

**Tony:** Exactly, right. And I do see a lot of that where people do use a lot of open-source, shared development. And then it just, there’s that potential exposure of, like, IP theft, right? And so, I think the big concern—and I do think it’s not necessarily warranted or unwarranted—is I get asked a lot of time about IP protection for somebody that’s international, right? And usually, it’s covered by good governance of NDAs, contracts, whatnot, that really shouldn’t make it any more risky than if somebody was working remotely across the state or across the United States, right? So, I think, and tell me what your thoughts are, Brian, is like one of the biggest questions or concerns I get when it comes to using talent from Latin America is just kind of the protection of data leaks, integrity of that, just kind of having those conversations and educating that it’s more dangerous than playing somebody who’s working from home.

**Brian:** Yeah, you know, I think there’s almost like three worlds. If somebody’s based in the States, you trust them before you verify in a lot of cases, right? If someone is, say, in China, Russia, Iran—you know, countries that are on a kind of a watch list, so to speak—it’s verify, verify, verify, and then maybe trust. But I think Latin America still is a little bit of an unknown for a lot of companies. Could you expand on that a little bit more? How should companies think about similarities and differences with Latin America, and what does that mean for IP confidentiality?

**Tony:** Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I think one of the first things I discovered when working out of Latin America—and my primary hub is out of Brazil, you know, I do work out of some other countries as well, but Brazil’s been sort of my go-to—is that there’s a lot of cultural similarities and just the way development is approached, right? There’s a lot of agile processes, there’s a lot of collaboration. And, you know, when I talk to a lot of potential founders or directors of IT engineering, you know, they always say, “Well, I’m not looking for contractors.” And I try to go into conversation of, “Well, they’re only contractors if you treat them as such,” right? It’s really just a matter of classification on a piece of paper. If you treat them like your core development team, they just happen to be in Latin America. There’s no reason why they can’t contribute no differently than somebody else who’s distributed across California or Florida. It’s a matter of integration and bringing that in. And so, one of the questions I always ask people who are looking to hire for Latin America is, “For you to be successful, how do you plan to really integrate them into the team so that way you’re feeling like you’re getting your maximum contributions?” And that’s not meaning maximum output of work, but maximum contribution of a person within a team, right? Because I’ve talked to so many amazing people down there, and they just, they have PhDs, or they’re former CTOs or CEOs, and they’ve built brilliant things, and they want to contribute to the next great thing in the States. But if you treat them like they’re an hourly worker who is just clicking through tickets, you’re probably missing out on a lot of great opportunities to really grow your team and your product really, really fast. And it’s been really cool. I’ve been doing this now for about four years, and I’ve got some developers down in Brazil who are with the same company now, going on close to four years. And they just, they get bonuses, they’re included in all the sprints and everything like that. So, it’s just, it really is a matter of classification and how you decide you want to treat them.

**Brian:** Yeah, yeah, that’s a great point. Reminded me of something that’s been top of mind for us. Because I think, when we’re talking about nearshoring, time zone and cost are always a big thing. But finding somebody that can hit your hiring bar is really what managers want, right? What directors and VPs of engineering want, like, “All right, that’s nice. Are they good? Can they hit my hiring bar?” And if you could, talk a little more about that.

**Tony:** Yeah, I think the way I approach hiring or placing talent in the companies is, I look at it from a business perspective first and a technical perspective second, right? The way I look at hiring is, we’re all trying to accomplish goals or objectives, and hiring is sort of the byproduct that gets us from point A to point B. And so, I really want to understand, “Are we building a product? Are we factoring legacy code? What are we doing here? And what’s the impact that’s going to have on the business?” So I can really understand that. Because then what I’ll do is, as I talk through my network, I really want to get a feel for the right personality and mindset and be able to match them up. Because when we’re talking about, like, check boxes—”I need eight years of React, five years of X”—those are our check boxes, and they’ll validate through whatever processes are. But it’s really more important to sort of hit that kind of soft-skill mindset. Because again, those are going to be the contributors that are going to help you hit the goal. And so, especially when you’re talking about early-stage startups, oftentimes they need people who are nimble, can wear multiple different hats, can jump on something, shift gears at a moment’s notice. So, we want to make sure when we’re talking to people and talent that that’s something that they have experienced, that they enjoy doing, that it’s a right fit. If they tell me, “No, I like working in big companies, and I like just doing my thing,” then, “Hey, you might be an awesome developer, but it doesn’t mean it’s necessarily the right fit.” And then the other thing as well is, not every developer is set the same. I always kind of put them into two buckets: you have your architects who love to get up there with your CTO and founders and design things and get really nitty-gritty. And then you have what I call the workhorses, which are just like, “Hey, give me all the tickets. What do you need me to do? What are these sprints?” And I will bang them out for you, right? Both are great. It just depends on what you need. And so, we really try to identify what’s the right mindset and fit, and that’s why we have so much more longevity in the role, because it’s not just the technical component.

**Brian:** Yeah, that’s a great point. Well, let’s talk more about Brazil. You know, for most Americans, 25% of us have passports. Brazil, what most of them probably know is it’s a huge country and they speak Portuguese. But anything else is icing on the cake. So, tell us, what should people know about Brazil? And then maybe you could dive into some of the major cities, talent pockets, things like that.

**Tony:** Yeah, yeah. I can tell you right away about Brazil: it’s just very, very warm and accommodating people, right? I mean, I’ve made so many friends that I’ve never met face-to-face down in Brazil just because they’re so engaging and accommodating; their personalities… I’ve helped them with their resumes, they’ve helped me kind of work through some technical ideas that I’m building. And it’s just, it’s a spirit of collaboration and success for each other. What really resonates for me is, again, and this is regardless of country, but I’ve felt this in Brazil particularly, you know, they’re moms, they’re dads, they have bills, they have kids, and they just dream of wanting better opportunities in their career and growth. And so, they work really hard. They upskill, not just their technical prowess, but their soft skills, their English-speaking abilities, and just really to provide a lot of value. And it’s just been, they’re very humble, right? Everyone’s just ultra, ultra humble. And so, and the infrastructure down there is phenomenal, right? So, you’re talking like Florianópolis is just kind of like the Silicon Valley of Brazil. And then you have your major, your Rio and São Paulo. And then those are probably like your three, Santa Catarina, major concentrated hubs. But the infrastructure is really, really strong. The universities and just the technical training that they go through is just top-tier. And so, it’s just very, very humbling for me every time I talk to somebody and just how amazing their skill set is. And it just makes me want to help them find a great opportunity that makes them happy.

**Brian:** As you talk about Florianópolis as the Silicon Valley, does that mean there’s a lot of tech startups, a lot of domestic companies operating out there?

**Tony:** Yeah, yeah. So, there’s a lot of, yeah, a lot of agencies, tech, Brazilian tech startups are right down there. So, it’s just like an emerging, young, vibrant hub away from sort of the big metropolises of São Paulo and Rio. And so, yeah, it’s just a very, very up-and-coming tech. I always say it’s sort of like the Austin, Silicon, like it’s like the next hub, Austin, Salt Lake City, sort of emerging hub down in Brazil.

**Brian:** Yeah. So, if you’re a new CS grad out of Florianópolis or São Paulo, Rio, what does that path kind of look like? Are you joining a Brazilian tech startup? Are you going right to working with the U.S.? Maybe a domestic big oil company? What are some of their options?

**Tony:** Yeah, I would say probably your best bet is to really kind of cut your teeth and gain some experience working locally, right? So, a lot of amazing Brazilian startups; fintech is really huge down there. Getting that under your belt. And then what I would say is, if you have aspirations of working in a North American company sooner rather than later, really start upskilling your English game. And again, you don’t need to speak flawless English, but just being able to communicate strongly your thoughts and your ideas is going to be really, really critical. What I would also say is just making sure that you continue to network as well, right? So, I would totally, if you’re dreaming of working in the U.S., reach out to U.S. hiring managers and developers and just connect with them on LinkedIn and just kind of create awareness. So then that way, you start to immerse yourself more in their culture and what they’re looking for as well. So, that’s what I would say.

**Brian:** If you’re a technical company in the States and now you’ve listened to this pod and you’re interested in Brazil, what does that mean for budget? You know, and obviously there’s nuances, and seniority levels, and English. What does that mean? Like, I can hire one person in San Francisco, or…?

**Tony:** So, I always say Latin America is sort of that sweet spot for everyone, where it’s the best bang for your buck. It’s that kind of nice intersection of talent, financial cost, output, and kind of time-zone overlap. It’s right there. I think the big thing that I would always kind of educate tech companies on is that they’re absolutely not going to be as inexpensive as, you know, the Philippines or India or whatnot. But they sit right there in the middle, and they’re going to give you the best value for your dollar, right? So, when I’m thinking about, “Okay, I need to hire up a founding engineer,” you can go spend that 175 and bring somebody on locally around the table. Or, for half of that, you can bring one person on, maybe even two people, or a pod, right? And get just as much done. Because what I’m looking at is, are you right now in those early stages truly looking to build a team, or are you really looking to build a company? And a company means it’s product, it’s runway, it’s capital, it’s sales, and it’s a team, right? And so, while we love the idea of, “I’m building a core local team,” what I always say is, think about your financial flexibility. And working with global talent really gives you the ability to kind of shift, because again, new administration, economy is constantly in flux. We don’t know necessarily what things are going to look like. And so, just having talent in place, like Brazil, Argentina, it just gives you more flexibility to be nimble.

**Brian:** Tony, I wanted to ask, as you’ve been doing this for four years, what are some of the maybe myths or biases that people constantly get wrong about Latin America that come up in conversations?

**Tony:** So, they’re going to have an accent, guys. It’s unavoidable, right? And so, people can have an accent and speak excellent, be excellent communicators, right? So, it’s surprisingly, I hear that a lot. “You know, they had a thick accent.” I’m like, “Did you understand what they were talking about? Did you— well, yeah,” right? So, I think that’s a huge component right there. The other thing as well is just like the time-zone overlap. Brazil is no more than three to four hours difference with your West Coast teams, so you actually are able to maximize overlap with whatever resources you have in the U.S. So, I think that’s a big thing. And then, there’s this whole concept as well of working multiple jobs at the same time, right? I’ve seen that just as much in the United States. And really, that just becomes a matter of you as a CTO or whatnot making sure you have your processes in place. What I always coach early-stage companies: it doesn’t matter if you’re hired in Brazil, United States, if you don’t have your processes and your procedures in place to be able to bring them on to be successful, they’re not going to be successful. And it’s always easy to blame, “Well, they were overseas,” as a reason why that doesn’t work. So, before you spend any capital, deploy any capital on any sort of technical challenge, just make sure you’ve got your processes in place to make sure, “Hey, is the code clean? Is it my code? Are they working exclusively?” So, you just have to have those in place before you start scaling up talent.

**Brian:** All great points. Well, Tony, this has been fantastic, super informative. Learned a ton about AI, Brazil, and so forth. We’ll make sure we drop your LinkedIn in the show notes so people can connect with you. Really appreciate your time today.

**Tony:** Thanks, Brian. It’s always good to catch up with you, man.

**Brian:** All right. Well, you’re listening to the Nearshore Cafe podcast. I’m Brian Samson, your host. And this podcast was sponsored by Plug Technologies, Plug.tech. Great way to connect developers, even ones in Brazil like Tony talked about, with U.S. companies. Thanks again for listening, everybody.

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