Living, Designing & Thriving in Bogota, Colombia with Ricardo Marquez & Jonathan Ruiz | Nearshore Cafe

Brian: Welcome to the Nearshore Cafe podcast, home to the most interesting stories and people doing business in Latin America. Welcome, everyone, to another episode of the Nearshore Cafe podcast. I’m Brian Sampson, your host, and on the Nearshore Cafe, we talk about people doing business in Latin America. We have a special treat today. If you are interested in Colombia, Bogota, and culture, food, doing business, working in tech, this is going to be a really fun one. But first, let me thank our sponsor. Our sponsor today is Plugg Technologies, P-L-U-G-G dot Tech. Plugg is a great way to find software developers all over Latin America for growing U.S. companies. So, let’s get into our show today. We have Ricardo Marquez and Jonathan Ruiz. Welcome, guys, to the show!

Ricardo: Brian, thank you for having us today.

Jonathan: Thanks, Brian. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Brian: Absolutely. Well, both of you are from not only Colombia, but the biggest city, Bogota. A lot of our listeners have curiosity about LATAM, but maybe they haven’t visited everywhere. Myself included, I have yet to make it to Bogota. Could you give us a sense of just life in Colombia, life in Bogota? What is that like?

Ricardo: Let me take it first. Let me start from the basics. It’s a city high up in the mountains, so it feels very foolish, you know, usually, weather-wise. But also, attire-wise, it’s really funny because you can actually go through the whole spectrum in the same day. So, in the mornings, it goes down to like, you know, maybe 30 or 32, 35. Midday can go up to 80. And because it’s the equator and it’s up in the mountains, it rains almost every day. So then you have to have some kind of, you know, coat or umbrella or something like that. And it goes down to like the 40s when it rains, and then up to 60 when it’s night. So, you have to be really prepared with a lot of layers that are water resistant to go through.

Ricardo: It’s very plush in terms of nature, trees. The development of the city has done a lot of good in that sense. And that’s one of the things that I really miss about it, is that mix of like urban development, you know, plus, you know, forests. And of course, you know, I have to say that sometimes the traffic is incredibly slow. But, and the last thing that I would say is because the traffic is so slow, public transportation is something that has been something that works really well in the city. So, you know, that’s how I grew up. That’s how I moved all around. And, you know, I mean, it’s not having to need a car to move around in a city as big as Bogota.

Brian: Now, did you both grow up in the same neighborhood in the city?

Ricardo: That’s a good question. Do you know which part of the city you grew up, Jonathan?

Jonathan: I don’t know. I grew up, I grew up in the south of the city.

Ricardo: But, but yeah, I mean, like, we’re up in the north.

Brian: Oh, you grew up in the North? Cali? Yeah.

Jonathan: So, just to echo what Ricardo said, I actually came to the States when I was 10. So, you know, my memories of Colombia are, of course, very limited because I grew up there until I was 10. But, yes, you know, some of the things that I do remember: the weather, and you know, how cold it gets at night. You actually have to sleep with a couple of blankets, really thick blankets. That’s right. You know, for the listeners, I now live in Miami, which is the total opposite, very hot, and I sleep with a very, very thin, like, you know, just a tiny blanket. But anyway, so I remember that.

Jonathan: Something that I recall very vividly is an event that happens on Sundays. It’s called “La Ciclovía.” And they close down a whole street, so cars don’t pass, and everyone gets out, and they can, you know, take out their kids. You know, it’s safe because there are no cars, and they can ride bikes, they can ride skates. So, I remember skating with my siblings. So, you know, you have this very wide street just for you to, you know, skate and ride bikes. So, I recall that vividly when I was younger.

Brian: That’s the reason that I’ve really come to appreciate about LATAM overall, is just an emphasis on major plazas, pedestrian streets. Of course, there’s always traffic to contend with, but they really seem to make a special focus to provide spaces for people.

Ricardo: Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, the thing that I remember now that Jonathan has brought so many memories with “La Ciclovía” is also how you can make it a social event. So, you go out with friends, of course, and then you ride together, but you can stop to get, you know, fresh fruit juice, you know, almost every, you know, every block, or you can get some kind of, like, you hear music anywhere. So, you have all these groups of people getting together as well as doing sports. And, and then that social openness is something that, you know, the weather allows, and kind of like, you know, people are really open, and that community is really great.

Brian: Yeah, it’s not 100 degrees outside, you can be together. Yeah. So, you know, when I think of various countries, what I love about LATAM is just the nuances, country by country. In Argentina, you know, it has strong Italian influence. How about Colombia? Where are some of the influences? And maybe also talk about maybe the expat community as well in Colombia.

Jonathan: Yeah, I mean, yeah. Oh, go for it.

Ricardo: Yeah, no, no, I was just going to say one, one great example that was really well done, I don’t know if you, Brian, or the listeners have watched “Encanto,” the Disney movie.

Brian: Oh, yeah. A couple of years ago. Yeah, my kids like that.

Jonathan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like that movie really encompasses, you know, what Colombia is, and, and, and, you know, the influences that, that, you know, you have the European, of course, you have the African, which is very, very ingrained in our, in our culture, the music. We, I grew up listening to salsa. Yeah, you know, I learned how to dance when I was probably three years old, I’m not kidding. And, you know, I also want to instill that in my children, now that we live in the States, although it’s a little different. But, yeah, so much influence. The, also, the indigenous, the indigenous in Colombia as well, very, very heavily influenced. So, yeah, anyway, Ricardo, you want to say something?

Ricardo: Oh, no. Well, I mean, so, so, so many things to, to tell actually about this, but your question. I think that to Jonathan’s point, there is this whole plateau, and you used to also have a really strong indigenous community that became farmers. And when my grandparents grew up, and then, like, you know, like, my tradition, my family has been there for several generations, then there is this mix of like the urban sprawl happening. At the same time, kind of like the farmers mixing. So, you would find, you know, farmers markets that would be really close to like very affluent neighborhoods. And that was, that was really appealing to expats, you know, like in the last century.

Ricardo: Now, what I, what I hear, what I, what I see sometimes I go there for for projects and, you know, to work with teams there, what I hear is that the expat community is still fairly, you know, fairly small and fairly located in specific parts of the city, like the Northeast, for example. But, because of that influence and because of how the city has grown, then they still keep some of those, you know, traditions. But, for example, the restaurant scene has expanded immensely. So, I think I mentioned to you, the best San Luis reefs I’ve had in my life were in Bogota. They were really, really great. So, definitely recommended for people who want to go, you know, and spend a week in Bogota or something like that to navigate the restaurant scene. It’s very good. And it has also, you know, to Jonathan’s point, I remember this tiny restaurant in the middle of the city that is a mix of African roots and Southern indigenous food. And it’s just amazing. It’s something that I’ve never seen before, you know, anywhere. So, definitely recommend it.

Brian: That’s incredible. Just the different cultures that melt in Colombia. You know, it sounds quite unique. Like, I can’t think of another country with this European, the Spanish, this African convergence.

Jonathan: Yeah, no, definitely, definitely. And it’s interesting because, you know, now, some of us have gotten a chance to go to Europe, right? And now you can see, you know, certain aspects in Europe, right? In Barcelona, in the little plazas, and you’re like, “Oh, I can see how that influenced the way that we designed our streets,” you know, and how, you know, the colonizers came in, and they sort of like tried to, but it’s also like a different flavor of it, you know, so it’s pretty interesting. So, I think, I think, you know, to piggyback on the food scene, I think I’ve heard multiple friends who are not Colombian, who’ve been to Bogota and who’ve been to different cities in Colombia, and they’ve all said that Bogota has the best food scene in Colombia, which I thought was very, very interesting. Yeah, because I’ve been to, you know, Cartagena and, you know, different cities, Cali. But, apparently, yes, Bogota has, in terms of like diverse, in terms of culinary experience, is diverse. You know, from like super high-end restaurants, or like street food, Bogota seems to be, yeah. So, that’s, that’s an interesting. I don’t know, Ricardo, if you’ve ever heard that, but that’s what I’ve heard from my friends.

Ricardo: Well, I hear that it’s actually, you know, renowned in South America now, you know, because the industry has grown so much, and it has specialized. And that’s what got me curious to, like, trying different things, like, you know, amazing hors d’oeuvres, that kind of stuff. That’s cool. When I was a kid, that was none of that, you know. It was, it was very much, like, you know, very traditional Colombian food, which is also really good, but it’s very different. Yeah.

Brian: Yeah. And, just expand on that. How would you describe traditional Colombian food?

Ricardo: Oh, man. From Bogota? Okay, I guess I have to talk about Ajiaco, you know, start from there, because there are a lot of stews and a lot of soups. And Ajiaco is like this mix of different types of potato-like, you know, products, and they melt into this very creamy chicken broth-like flavor, and mixed with some very aromatic herbs. Then they create this mix of, like, liquid, very creamy, soul food. That when you have it, you know, sometimes my family used to have it over Christmas or my grandma used to make it for, you know, like New Year’s Eve. And that was something that just almost was like a landmark, or like, how to get together and share this very rich type of food, but at the same time, very comforting. So, there’s a lot of that comfort type of food, at least in, you know, in Bogota, because of the weather, too. But, it’s, it’s amazing. I still miss it. Oh, yeah, amazing.

Jonathan: Oh, no. I was going to add, I was going to add to the, to the soup and the stews. I feel like there’s so many different ones. You have a whole bunch of different Sancocho. Well, Sancocho, I don’t think Sancocho is from, from, from Bogota. And, of course, given the weather, you know, you, you’re always, you know, you want that warmth. Yeah, but that’s, that’s, that’s usually like in, you know, around, like, Ricardo mentioned, you know, during the holidays, you know how here in the States, you know, we do Thanksgiving and we have a turkey? Right. Over there is the soup, and you have this big pot because the whole family’s coming, right? So, it’s a big pot with a big spoon, and everyone’s just having this, this awesome stew. Yeah, that’s what I remember. Amazing.

Brian: And I’m sure you can’t beat grandmothers.

Ricardo: Oh, no. Of course. My, my grandma used to get different types of herbs and capers and then mix chicken, but also oxtail for the flavor. And that makes for us, actually, very powerful. But, one thing you may remember, now that we’re talking about holidays, is also desserts. So, like the same stewy kind of, like, syrupy type of dessert, fruit-based. So, like, different types of fruits made into syrups, into jams, that kind of stuff. That’s something that I grew up with. When, you know, Latin America in general, but Colombia, is also very traditionally Catholic. So, my grandma used to make, with my aunt and my mom, seven different types of desserts on Good Friday. And, you know, we would be, my parents didn’t, didn’t let us, like, listening to any kind of fun music or salsa or anything like that because it was a day to, like, you know, be respectful. But, we could eat all the sugar that we wanted.

Brian: That’s hilarious. That’s awesome. So, occasionally our viewers will take advantage of recommendations. You know, rather than go to Yelp, they want to hear from the experts. I just wanted to, if you had any specific restaurants that you’d recommend anyone when they go to Bogota, anyone that you wanted to give a shout-out or recommendation to.

Jonathan: Okay, go for it. It’s a restaurant called Andres, but it’s, it’s so much more than just a restaurant. It’s like an experience. From the, from the moment you drive up to the restaurant, things are different. You’re going to see a cow outside. I mean, it’s very, very, very interesting. And once you go inside, you know, the decoration is, yeah, it’s, it’s, it’s an experience from, you know, from the moment you walk in to the food. There’s music. So, yeah, I would totally recommend. I think there is one in Bogota, and then there’s one out in the outskirts, townships. Yeah.

Ricardo: That’s the one that I think Jonathan is talking about. It’s definitely, you know, taking the hike and going to the outside the city to basically have an afternoon. Last time I went with my kids, it was spent from like 4:00 PM until like 10:00 or something like that because there were so many things to do. And at the same, yeah, you just kind of like munch and have different things, and, you know, it’s barbecue oriented. So, yeah.

Brian: Now, we’ve talked a lot about Bogota. Anything we should add maybe about some of the other cities that you brought up? Cali, Medellín?

Ricardo: What I hear from friends, like American friends who have been there, is that the, the infrastructure and the kind of like, the, the companionship that different companies give to people who have never been in Colombia, made it very, very special. So, like the same, and, you know, weather-wise, the same way that Bogota is very cool-like, Medellín is very spring-like. And so, you see, you see this wonderful, beautiful landscapes, like, you know, Jonathan was saying from Encanto, because they got those landscapes from areas around there. Yeah, so definitely recommended for people to, to visit. And then I have to give a shout-out to Cali, which is the third biggest city in Colombia. But going there in between Christmas and New Year’s, where they have the Feria de Cali, which is one party that lasts like seven days. It’s definitely an experience that, you know, anyway, if you go safely with locals, you will not forget, and it will be amazing. So, yeah.

Brian: And one thing, we, we try to be authentic on the show, and sometimes reputations, you know, come across. And Colombia, you know, has, has a reputation that, that I think is quite dated. But if you don’t know, you don’t know. Can you maybe talk about what are some of the common misconceptions that people have about Colombia and how they’re, how they might be wrong about it today?

Jonathan: I mean, I can, I can, you know, just briefly mention, you know, since we were talking about, you know, different cities, I think Medellín is one of the main cities that has gone sort of like a, like a transformational renewal, if you may say that. You know, from, from, you know, the urban projects that they have started to public transportation. I think Medellín has an amazing cable system that goes from, you know, from the, from the valley all the way to the comunas. So, it’s beautiful. You, if you ever imagine, you have to, you know, you have to experience that MetroCable system. But, but I think, you know, given the history, of course, in the 80s, 90s, with drug trade, with the cartels and all that, of course, that, that is part of our history. And I think, you know, some of us are fortunate enough to, to have never dealt with, with that. But, of course, there’s, there’s, there’s a lot of history there.

Jonathan: Now, of course, as, you know, Hollywood and, and, you know, the Netflixes and, and, you know, all of these streamers, they will create content around it because it sells, right? People, people want to watch, and it is interesting, right? But, unfortunately, it also, you know, as, as a country is trying to sort of like show a new phase and attract more tourism, you know, you have these shows or, like, reminding people of the past, which is okay. But, at the same time, yeah, that could be a misconception, right? Colombia, the Colombia now is not the Colombia of the 90s, right? So, it has, it has evolved, it has changed. My wife, for example, she’s, she’s not a Colombian, she had never been to Colombia. And we went to Medellín for a wedding. By the way, a lot of people are doing weddings in Medellín because of the weather and how beautiful it is. And, and, and we were so pleased to see so many expats, so many people from different countries. And, you know, the ability to be out with my phone and not worry about, you know, will somebody come and try to steal it, right? So, it’s definitely evolved and has changed for the better, which, which I’m, I’m happy for. But, yeah, there’s definitely, of course, that history that you cannot ignore. Yeah.

Ricardo: I mean, the only thing that I would add to everything that Jonathan has said, which is, which is really great, is that Colombia is, it has a small infrastructure, but it’s a significant infrastructure in things like technology, for example. So, Medellín, to Jonathan’s point about transformation, went from being a city that was very traditional and kind of like reading about all these, you know, things that we see on the Netflixes and all these streamers, into a city that went to close to 100% literacy and also be that tech hub in the northern South America. So, you know, the investment in technology has been growing steadily over time, and it’s, it’s really significant. And also, I’m proud that, you know, the, the talent that Colombia has in general has been applied also with local people, not only the people that, you know, that we have there, the chance to get out of the country. Yeah.

Brian: I can certainly validate that. The demand, you know, once, once people have been exposed to talent in Colombia, and I hear Medellín all the time for software development, especially, they double down and triple down. Like, they, they love it. So, it’s, it’s fantastic. It’s amazing. I’d love to switch gears for a second and hit on your careers. Maybe we’ll start with you, Ricardo, first. Just talk a little more about your journey moving to the States, getting into technology, and your career in that respect.

Ricardo: So, just to give your, your viewers a little bit of context, both Jonathan and I are experienced designers. And I started, you know, just on the classic application of design, which in Colombia is a very small, a very small industry, more related to agencies and that kind of stuff. So, my, my early work had to do with two things: one was just regular graphic and web design, very commercial. And then a different application of creativity doing research. And I always wanted to mix those two. And before that, when I was really young, I went to engineering school. So, a part of research and design and, you know, creation, and the part of technology was something that I always wanted to merge.

Ricardo: Fast forward so many years after doing freelance in different types of jobs in the market that was very limited, then I started getting more work here in the States and ended up here, just working more or less in the same area for like another five or seven years. And I had the chance to then join UX after going to Carnegie Mellon for Human-Computer Interaction. And not only was that a great experience in terms of like, you know, switching gears in my, in my professional career and getting more specialized in tech, but also it answered that question that I always had, to mix in these three things that I always wanted to mix. You know, on research, when I was in Colombia, I was part of a little startup, and I was really proud that we were able to create a couple of new methodologies for research. And we’ve always been very customer-centric. And that mentality, you know, I tried to bring it here, and I’ve been trying to keep it for over the years. Just to not make this story too long, once I, I joined, you know, technology, I moved to Silicon Valley. Now I’m on the East Coast, but when I joined that, and later in working in Europe for a couple years, my focus has been the creation of new products and new opportunities, but always with that mentality of, how is it that we can bring these things back to a market like Colombia, or a market like, you know, people in the States, like regular people in the States? And that’s why I ended up working in places like Intuit, where you can have a small business, here in DocuSign, thinking about the people who actually want to make agreements happen, which is where we are right now. But also in places like working for Telefonica in Madrid, where we created an offering for a phone in partnership with Mozilla that was basically a smartphone that was free for some markets in South America. And there was a great way of helping people because it was giving access to technology in a realistic and commercially viable way for things that were unthinkable, you know, before that offering or Google’s, you know, under $100 phone. So, some of these things made me very proud. And now, you know, that I have, you know, led teams on different projects and that kind of stuff, I’m trying to focus more, kind of like going back full circle to helping people with the ideas that I’m doing. And it’s a journey, right? And I’m very glad to do so. And of course, my main source of pride is meeting wonderful, wonderful, talented people like Jonathan, for example. And that’s what moves me, you know, to continue going forward and working in all these different places that I’ve been working.

Brian: And Ricardo, if I may ask a few follow-ups. First, maybe with education, Carnegie Mellon, top school for design in UX. Maybe you could talk about maybe some of the similarities and differences between your bachelor’s degree in Colombia and then going to CMU.

Ricardo: I think the similarities is how people were so passionate, how the work was very applied. That’s one of the reasons why I really wanted to go to Carnegie Mellon. I didn’t want to go into some deep, you know, more strategic approach to things. I wanted to make it more hands-on. I think that Carnegie Mellon offered that. It was very practical, it was very, you know, applied. So, I think that, that is, there is a similarity that I saw when I was in, in my bachelor’s degree. It was very project-oriented. But I think what was very different was the outlook and the kind of like, the pragmatic sense of the ambition that people have. So, I think that in Colombia, because of the size of the market, and of course, things have changed so much since I went to, to my bachelor’s degree, the expectations of what can be done are a little bit different. And one of the things that opened a lot of possibilities for me in terms of like just my mindset and mental model was seeing the ambition, but the application, like the translation to do things that all the folks, my peers at Carnegie Mellon had. And that happened to me so many ideas and possibilities that can relate to, you know, working as a startup, as a co-founder, and all that stuff that I never imagined I could do when I started the program. So, I’m very grateful for that. Yeah.

Brian: Excellent. And then, tell us just a little more about what you’re doing today with DocuSign.

Ricardo: Sure. So, at DocuSign, we both are part of the user experience team. We call it Product Experience. And I am part of the senior leadership of the, you know, 150 something souls that, that we are taking care of these things. And my team takes care of taking the work that, for example, Jonathan is doing in mobile, and Jonathan, I’ll let you describe your job better later. I want to be true to what it is about it. But taking work like that, or work that people are doing in web and start connecting those dots. So, our customers can see, you know, an offering and an experience that is fluid, that is uninterrupted, and that is very supportive. So, connecting those dots is what my team does, and what I do is to create kind of like the path for the team to create to connect those things internally. Yeah.

Brian: Wonderful. Thank you. And then, Jonathan, if you could also share a little about your career journey. And I’m also quite interested in, because you moved to the States when you were 10, if some of that early upbringing has influenced your career or, you know, how you think about design. Yeah.

Jonathan: Yes, yes. So, yeah, I mean, to sort of like take you back to, to, you know, when I was 10 years old, I, I come from a family of. My dad is actually a musician, so he, he’s an artist. So, I remember him drawing. He had like sketchbooks. And he’s also a musician. So, you know, I was always drawn to the arts. I think it was something that came easy to me. I started playing drums from when I remember. And drawing, you know, just sketching and doing things like that. So, you know, the way that, you know, my upbringing in Colombia influenced me was the fact that in school, we used to, you know, we had, we had like art classes and crafts. I remember, I was part of the salsa band. You’re not going to believe this, but I was in a salsa band when I was in Colombia, and we performed. We performed in front of the school. I remember playing the timbales, which is the, you know. So, yeah, it’s, it’s insane. And the cowbell, you know, little things like that. But, yeah, that’s like dear to my heart because that’s what I grew up, you know, and I was always drawn to the art.

Jonathan: So, I think when I came to the States, you know, I did a little bit of middle school, high school. In high school, I joined the, you know, the, I think it was Photoshop class or something. And so, I started, you know, from early on in high school, already sort of like diving into, into, you know, doodling around and messing around with this, this, this program software. Back in the day, of course, computers, you know, were a lot more limited. So, you know, I would always try to sneak into, into these labs and try to. I remember the Macintosh. You know, I thought it was so awesome. So, anyway, once it came down to deciding what to go to school for, remember, I actually, I actually wanted to go to school for music. Believe it or not, I wanted to get a performance major. But, you know, life, you know, takes you in different directions. And I, I actually was not able to, like, I didn’t pass the audition for a specific school. And that was sort of like my turning point, and I said, “Maybe I should focus on my second passion, which is more like design.” You know, at that time, I didn’t know that you could get, you know, be a designer, get paid for it. But, you know, I definitely enjoyed storytelling. And, you know, back in the day, of course, with the web, you know, building, building MySpace, you know, pages for my friends, you know, and copying and pasting the code without really knowing what the heck it was doing. But, that was, that was sort of like my, my outlet in terms of creativity.

Jonathan: So, long story short, I, I started with another degree of graphic design with a minor in photography, and then I jumped into advertising, and that was my, my major. So, I got a BA in advertising, and I joined the, well, I actually started while I was in school. I started a print shop. So, I was, you know, designing flyers, business cards. But, I think that was very important in my, in my early career because I got a chance to see the end-to-end process of something as simple as a business card, right? Like, “Okay, design it.” Great. “Now, you have to print it. Now, you have to cut it. Now, you have to make sure that the colors match the design.” You know, so it was like the, the printing process that was interesting. I also created wraps, I remember wraps for cars. That was interesting. But, anyway, I, I definitely learned a lot because there was, there was a group of more experienced designers. So, even before I graduated, I was already, you know, making a living as a designer. So, so that was fun. And then, fast forward, I joined a small startup, an ad agency. I was the first designer they hired. So, I, you know, I got a chance to choose my own title. So, of course, I called myself Art Director because I was directing myself. But, I, I got a chance to really grow in that, in the role as well. I actually made a lot of mistakes. But, you know, you learn, they’re not mistakes, they’re, they’re, you know, they’re more like learnings. And I, one of the clients for this small ad agency here in Florida was Shazam, the music app. So, you all know Shazam, music recognition. So, I worked closely with the Shazam team. They had an office in New York. And one time at a happy hour in New York, you know, talking to, to my counterpart in Shazam, she, she mentioned, “Have you ever, you know, have you ever thought of moving to California for a job?” And, you know, I said, “Honestly, no. My first thought was always New York,” because, you know, New York is the Mecca of advertising. But, long story short, I applied to the role, I got the job. So, that was sort of like how I broke into, into tech. And in that role within Shazam, I became a product designer. And from there, I joined a startup. And then from that startup, I joined DocuSign, which is where I’m right now. And I’m currently leading and managing the mobile team. So, we have two apps that are native, the Android and iOS app. And yeah, I’m currently leading the design for that team. So, that’s, that’s where I’m at right now. I, I work remotely, right?

Brian: Yeah. Well, as a long-time DocuSign customer, I can say that the products are very, very well designed. So, you guys are doing a great job.

Jonathan: Thank you for trying to make it much better, I think. Yeah.

Brian: And the mobile, especially. You know, it’s funny how whenever I need something signed, like, “Don’t worry, just sign it on your phone.” It’s, it’s, it’s very easy. Yeah, it’s very convenient. Yeah, yeah.

Brian: Well, let’s move to some fun questions here. So, I know that, you know, English, you guys are obviously fully fluent, but it wasn’t your first language. And I’m curious if there’s an English phrase that maybe you’ve picked up that’s become like a, like a favorite phrase for you.

Ricardo: I’ll talk about that one. Go for it.

Jonathan: Yeah, like, more than phrases, I think it’s just, just words that I, it seems like I, I use a lot, but “apparently” is one of them. “Apparently.” But I didn’t know until my wife told me, “Hey, you say ‘apparently’ a lot.” And I’m like, “Huh, thanks for that.” No, I’m more aware, and I don’t use it as much. But, I probably said it once throughout this conversation, I’m sure. Yeah.

Ricardo: I think I go by periods, you know, over time. The one that I have right now is, “There is no them; there’s only us.” And I heard that in a, in a documentary, and then, and then it has applied to so many things that I just, I just use it a lot. So, you know, my teams roll their eyes when I, when I tell them that, but I do believe, and I think that at the end of it, they’re trying to achieve something. There’s no them, that’s all us. [Laughter]

Brian: That’s awesome. How about, when you have a, have a taste for home cooking, where do you go in each of your cities? Where do you go when you have a taste for home cooking?

Jonathan: Well, I, I, I’m, I’m in a very interesting place called Miami. And, and, you know, it is a very interesting place because it’s, it is very, very heavily influenced by Latin America. So, I think here in Miami, I can go pretty much anywhere and, and get, you know, a Colombian restaurant somewhere. Yeah, so here, here in South Florida. Now, if you go outside of South Florida, it’s a different story. But, but yeah, here in South Florida, of course, there’s a lot of choices. So, but, but, you know, I live, I live, my parents also live here in Miami. So, if I want something that really, really like, you know, like home cooking, and, and something that really reminds me of my childhood, I’ll reach out to my mom, my dad, and be like, “Hey, I’m craving this,” and they’ll make it for me.

Brian: Nice. Which is awesome. You have the whole, the whole full monty.

Ricardo: Pittsburgh has a couple of places that are Colombian. I haven’t tried them yet, except for maybe like a food truck or something like that, and, and they’re, they’re, they’re good. Are they like the best food that I’ve ever had? No. The best, the best Colombian food I’ve ever had was in Queens, in New York. Yeah, yeah, it was, it was really amazing, and it had something about home that I couldn’t define. Yeah, and, and it was just a family place, right? But, what that, what that creates here in Pittsburgh is that Pittsburgh has a really good food scene. So, you find here things that are not exactly Colombian, but, you know, Peruvian, for example. There are multiple places that are really good. So, I take the family and my kids there, and, you know, it definitely, definitely reminds me of that, and these, you know, high-up-mountains type of food, and it’s just amazing.

Jonathan: I, I was actually, I was actually super quickly, Brian, my wife and I, we went for, for our anniversary to this place called El Cielo, which is this Colombian, Colombian place. But, it’s, it’s high-end Colombian, which was interesting. It’s a different take in Colombian. And it’s like a, it’s like a 17-course meal. But, they take you through a journey of, of all these different places, all these different plates, all these different textures. But, one that you would enjoy, Ricardo, which I thought was amazing was, so, so, “perro caliente” is also, you know, something that we eat a lot in, in Colombia growing up. And they made this “perro caliente,” but it was this tiny thing, but it was instead of, instead of like a sausage, it was, it was a sausage made out of lobster. And, oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, and the bread itself. Yeah, it was just like this. But, once you tasted it, it tasted just like “perro caliente,” you know. So, it brought you back. So, that whole experience was amazing. If you ever get a chance to go to El Cielo, I, I forget the name of the chef, but they also have one in Medellín. And, oh, amazing, amazing.

Brian: I’m writing this down. I will, I will definitely check that out. I’ll definitely check that out. I love this topic, and Ricardo, it’s, it’s fun talking to you about this, too, because now I know the best St. Louis ribs are in Bogota. And the best Colombian food is in Queens. It’s amazing.

Ricardo: And then, and then the best Spanish food I’ve had ever is here in Pittsburgh, too. And it’s called Mercia. So, good.

Brian: I love it. The world is becoming global. I love it. That’s right. That’s right. I love it. And then, two, two last questions here. The first is more of a, when you travel back home, if you can think of maybe like, if you had $50 or less to spend, and it wasn’t on food, just on something other than food, like a good purchase you can think of, something, something that comes to mind there.

Ricardo: All right, I, I have, I have that one for you. Yeah, there are many good places to buy stuff because Colombia has had a tradition of, like, good leather craft, you know, for shoes and that kind of stuff. But also, like, you know, just, just different types of, you know, clothing. But, I really like this place, Vélez. And Vélez has a really good offering of, like, you know, very colorful purses for women and wallets for men and then shoes and that kind of stuff. They had a line of Encanto, which was a very artistic line. You know, all the purses, it was beautiful. So, that’s my favorite place to go and get a wallet or get some kind of accessory that I need, and I try to go there every time I go home. Yeah.

Brian: Great. How about you, Jonathan?

Jonathan: Yeah, yeah. Well, this is great. First thing that came to mind was like a hammock. There are these beautiful hammocks that are handmade. Oh, that’s cool. So, so we ended up actually getting one on our trip to Cali, and we have it, we have it in our backyard. Oh, nice. But, it’s made out of, it’s like threaded. It’s beautiful, colorful. It reminds you of, of Colombia every time I see it. So, so that’s why we bought it. And, and yeah, that’s, that’s what came to mind. Yeah.

Brian: That’s cool. I like a bunch of good answers. Good answers. Last question, for Business Leaders in the States that are thinking about Colombia, they’re thinking about talent there, they’re thinking about opening up offices there. Any advice that you’d have for them so they can be successful operating in Colombia?

Ricardo: Being us. Now, I’m kidding. I think that, and you mentioned this before, the amount of talent that is there is really high. And I think that you don’t have to dig too deep with a couple of good contacts to find people who are amazing. So, what I would say is, don’t, don’t limit yourself to like the one or two, you know, known places to look for talent. Look in universities or like small businesses that have had interesting projects, for example, design. You can find very, very amazing people who are not too high on rates, and they have a lot of ambition to create great things. And, and I think that’s, that’s what it’s worth exploring, like in Bogota, for example. Yeah.

Jonathan: I mean, I would say, I would say, you know, if you’re an American business owner, and you’re looking for talent, and you want to set up shop, I think Colombia is a great place for, for multiple reasons. I think the talent pool is, is pretty, pretty awesome. You know, one fact that the dollar goes a long way, right? So, you’re talking about four times, four times the dollar. So, you know, you’re probably going to get a, a larger, you know, real estate if you need or if that’s something that you’re looking for. But, I, I think it’s just, you know, it comes down to the people. People are just, yeah, Colombians are known for, for, I don’t know if it’s just South Americans, but Colombians are known for hard work and, and, you know, having integrity. So, you know, it’s the people that have, who I’ve worked with, you know, I still talk to my cousins, right, who are professionals. And there, there’s so much passion for what they do. They’re, you know, they’re entrepreneurs, right? You know, it’s, it’s that mentality of, of, we call it, you know, just like, you know, I don’t know how to translate “verracos,” Ricardo, help me out here. But, just badass. Yeah, I don’t want to say the word. But, right. Yeah, that’s the best way.

Brian: We won’t censor it. It’s wide open. Don’t worry.

Jonathan: Okay, so, yeah, so, so anyway, so I think the people, the people, and of course, you know, Ricardo also mentioned, the infrastructure is definitely a lot better, and you can totally, totally, totally make a successful business there. Yeah.

Brian: Awesome. That’s great, great. Guys, this has been a blast. Such a fun show. I learned a lot about Bogota, Colombia. I’m sure our, our listeners will as well. Thank you so much for, for being here. This is really fun.

Ricardo: Thank you, Brian. Thank you. Those are really great. Yeah, yeah.

Brian: Let me thank our sponsor one more time. That’s Plugg Technologies, P-L-U-G-G dot Tech. A great way to find software developers all over Latin America, especially Colombia. And until next time, thanks for listening to the Nearshore Cafe. [Music]