The Nearshore Shift: How LATAM Became the Future of Global Staffing | The Nearshore Cafe Podcast

Brian Samson (00:01.474)
Welcome everyone to another episode of the Nearshore Cafe podcast. I’m Brian Sampson, your host. And if you’re interested in fintech, nearshoring, how the whole intersection collides, this is going to be the episode for you. We have Augustine Guerra from Vangui, a really interesting company that is in the fintech ecosystem.

Before we say hello to Augustine, let me thank our sponsor, Plug Technologies, PLUGG.Tech, a great way to connect talent from all over Latin America with US companies. Augustine, so great to have you.

Agustín Guerra (00:46.286)
Thank you very much, Ryan. It’s a pleasure. Thank you very much for having me today.

Brian Samson (00:50.642)
Absolutely. Augustine, where are you dialing in from?

Agustín Guerra (00:53.932)
Right now I’m back home in Montevideo, Uruguay. I came back for the holidays to visit family, but usually I’m days out of a combination of London and the Netherlands coming back and forth.

Brian Samson (01:04.506)
Yeah, that’s an interesting place to start in itself. You know, there’s not a lot of people that are going back and forth and those countries. How did that happen for you?

Agustín Guerra (01:16.302)
It’s a very long story. I first left Uruguay 10 years ago. was fresh. I was still in college actually. And I landed this job in the local, which is a Uruguay-based cross-border payments platform. And basically what happened is after working there for a year, they were opening an office in Shanghai, China. And they were looking for a couple of young people willing to go and try it.

And I said, yes, why not? That’s a bit of my attitude with everything in life. Yes, why not? And 10 years ago, I moved to China, working for the local. Spend there a couple of years when you live abroad for the first time, that opens your mind, right? The whole world opens for you. I spent a couple of years there in total in the local. was for about four years covering different areas.

And then after spending a couple of years in China, I wanted to change the scene a bit and I moved to Germany. I spent in Germany a couple of years. I spent another year in Poland and then it was when being a digital normal became, started to become trendy. So I spent a couple of years traveling around while I was, we were building Vanwe. And then at some point I knew to settle down. I was too much traveling. I was getting older.

Brian Samson (02:27.154)
Yeah.

Agustín Guerra (02:39.736)
So I was looking for a place to do it and London was the place that I chose first and then I just started to be around London and the Netherlands.

Brian Samson (02:50.31)
Yeah. Well, I have a lot of questions, but I think, you know, for those that are familiar with Latin America, you know, familiar, especially with countries like Uruguay, Argentina, you know, there’s a lot of European influence. So it’s one thing to, you know, I think go, go back and forth to a country like Germany, where there’s some German influence or Spain, Italy. But China is a whole other world.

Tell us just about like the culture clash and maybe also there’s similarities that maybe we’re not thinking about, know, and people are people, you know, what was that like as someone from Uruguay in Shanghai?

Agustín Guerra (03:37.43)
I still have this very clear memory. The first time I went there, I actually went for a couple of weeks for one project. This was before the decision was made to move there. I have this very clear picture of me living in the hotel lobby for the first time. It was, I went to Wangzhou, which is in the south, for these first two weeks. I have this very clear memory of where am I. Everything is very, very different. Food, culture, people, how business is made. It was the first time.

Not leaving the country, but the first time doing something meaningful outside of the country besides just traveling. So it was a cultural shock with everything. Food, people, transportation, the language as well, especially Chinese, place where English is not that common. It’s a place where you really need to learn at least the basics of Mandarin to get around. yes, it was not that easy, but I mean, it’s part of the process,

Brian Samson (04:34.16)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, starting with architecture, know, Montevideo has these kind of like beautiful traditional, you know, buildings from my, my memory, correct me if I’m wrong, but not a lot of like giant skyscrapers, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And then you go there. Yeah.

Agustín Guerra (04:49.934)
Yeah, yeah.

Agustín Guerra (04:55.15)
Yes, Uruguay has a lot of influence, mainly from Spain and Italy. The people come from Spain and Italy, and then the architecture is mainly Spanish. So we don’t have a single skyscraper in the country. We have a couple of what we consider tall buildings, but they are not really. So yes, the architecture is very European. Imagine Paris or Madrid. Also, Buenos Aires is very similar. So I know that a lot of people have…

Brian Samson (05:08.274)
Yeah.

Agustín Guerra (05:22.338)
being to Buenos Aires but not Montevideo is a less popular place. So imagine a smaller version of Buenos Aires when it comes to architecture.

Brian Samson (05:30.61)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And then even Buenos Aires, you one of the oldest subway systems and, you know, rail systems. And then you step into a place like China, where it seems like everything was built yesterday, you know, robots and, you know, super high speed and infrastructure. were your, what were some of your first impressions?

Agustín Guerra (05:55.342)
So many things coming from a country, Uruguay, where we don’t have a subway system, our transportation, it works, but it’s not the most modern. Everything works in China when it comes to infrastructure. It’s very, very well done. It’s very well planned as well. Also, when it comes, you know, speaking about FinTech, when I went there for the first time, they have been already using digital wallets for a very long time. And back in 2018, when this was happening, it was not popular.

in the rest of the world. So it was a paradigm change. How they pay, how they move money around. They were already not using cash almost. was a cashless society paying with their phones. Yeah, it was a big change.

Brian Samson (06:39.014)
Yeah, I definitely want to get into the FinTech in a second, but, you know, I often think of like Steve Jobs, know, who, when you think about like typography and, you know, he took all these interesting classes and they all came together. And for a FinTech founder,

like yourself, you know, who’s had exposure to Asia, Europe. How did all that maybe shape your perspective and vision as a founder?

Agustín Guerra (07:15.734)
Massively. The fact when you expose yourself to different cultures, different people, you learn how they think, you learn how they like to do things, you learn how comfortable they are doing certain things. So then when you’re on the other end, when you’re trying to approach them, when you’re trying to work with them, it changes a lot if you understand them. So that’s something I’m very thankful for actually, that I had the opportunity to go very young.

across Asia, Europe, South America, North America. And it’s a lot of personal growth, but that also is applied to the professional life.

Brian Samson (07:51.568)
Yeah. You know, and something you said, just like everything works and a lot of our listeners have been to Argentina, some have been to Uruguay. I was very impressed with Uruguay and it felt like, wow, this is like the Switzerland of Latin America, you know, the banks work, everything works. Meanwhile, you have these two, you know, loud, crazy neighbors in Brazil and Argentina, and there’s always like a crisis, you know, every moment.

And, you know, I’m curious how, you know, maybe somebody from Argentina where you’re just kind of used to stuff being in chaos. It’s almost normal. And then you have, you know, obviously Uruguay is much more stable. And then you have a place like China where like, it’s just the expectation that things work.

Can you, can you talk about that a little bit more and you know, I’m not picking on Uruguay, but maybe it’s, it’s, it’s neighbors that I’m picking on. Yeah. If you could talk about that.

Agustín Guerra (08:56.588)
NON

Absolutely, actually most of us will see it as a blessing, not as a curse. We have this joke among we Wayans that live abroad. Whenever you come back home once a year, once every two years, the joke is, how is everything exactly the same as it was when I left? Because it’s true. I’ve been living abroad for the last 10 years and not much changed. Every time I come back, I have to adapt. Things are in the same place. Everything is in the same place. So we should see it as a blessing.

stability, especially nowadays where things are changing in not so good ways in a lot of places. We are very happy with where we are. We have very stable governments. They change, but they are all stable. Very stable economy. Maybe it’s not the fastest growing one, but it’s stable. It doesn’t go down. And then also you mentioned about banks, complete financial freedom. You can do business from here.

That’s why a lot of companies like ours and companies from abroad, come to Uruguay to invest here. Why? Because we have good relationships with everyone. That’s part of this being the Switzerland of South America. We are in good terms with everyone and it’s a very fair playing field. If you can, you can do business and yeah, it’s going to be, it’s going to go very well.

Brian Samson (09:59.836)
Yes.

Brian Samson (10:17.072)
Yeah. I love that about Uruguay. You know, someone who started a business in Argentina and, know, my attorney at the time was, his expression was always like, you know, can we, you know, could we do this Mariano? Can we figure this out? And his response is like, by the grace of God. And the whole time I’m like, man, I should have started in Uruguay because it’s like predictable black and white, you know,

Agustín Guerra (10:35.502)
you

Brian Samson (10:46.15)
The rules are clear where Argentina was by the grace of God. So, but anyway, tell us more about the FinTech world, the ecosystem that you see in Latin America and abroad.

Agustín Guerra (11:03.534)
Yeah, so I believe that right now in Latin America, we already are passed through the stage of early disruption, meaning over the last maybe 10 years, the first players in the market came and they built the rails, they built the core. And nowadays we’re actually seeing, and also a lot of our clients, we are actually seeing fintechs that are building on top of other fintechs. So this second layer of fintechs where the core plumbing is already done.

the rails are there. And now it leaves a lot more space to differentiation and innovation. Why? Because the effort that now you need to launch a new product is slower because you can already use the leverage of the first fintechs that were around. So I do believe that in Latin America now we’re on this stage where fintechs are being built on top of fintechs and they are trying to show something different or bring something new.

Brian Samson (11:59.024)
Yeah, I think that’s an interesting point because that first level of fintechs was really disrupting things that traditional banks did, fairly mediocre. Do you see the second generation of fintechs disrupting what the first generation did or building on top of that? How might you see that?

Agustín Guerra (12:18.082)
I see it building on top of that. I see the new fintechs using what the first fintechs created, which is very useful, we need it. But the new fintechs are coming to build on top of that, meaning that both are equally as valid. The rails are needed to do the basic things, but now the new fintechs are bringing new products to the general public.

Brian Samson (12:20.347)
Mm-hmm.

Brian Samson (12:39.076)
Interesting. Tell me more about the Latin America consumer of some of these products. You what are they expecting? What are they what are they looking for?

Agustín Guerra (12:55.438)
That’s a very good question. So not so long ago we were cash societies and there has been a lot of disruption with the first layer of fintechs in order to teach the general public how to do things in a more modern way. So nowadays the thing that I’m seeing the most over the last couple of years with fintechs in Latin America is mostly around investments. Why?

Banking is already very popular. Most of the countries are already highly bankarized. So almost everyone has a bank account. There are new banks that are around that make things slightly easier and they are growing. But the thing that I haven’t seen the most is when it comes to investments and wealth tech. Because for a very long time, as Latin Americans, we thought that that was reserved for higher income countries. We thought that we just need to survive and save a couple of dollars here and there.

Brian Samson (13:48.455)
Yeah.

Agustín Guerra (13:53.262)
to then take a massive loan, a massive mortgage on a house and spend the rest of our lives paying a mortgage. And that’s it. That was our finances. But now I’m seeing that there’s a lot of new fintechs making it easier to the general public to invest and teaching the public how to invest, especially also when the pension systems of our countries, are not so strong. So no one really knows what’s going to happen in the future.

Brian Samson (14:10.535)
Hmm.

Agustín Guerra (14:18.648)
So I think a lot of these disruption and new things I’m seeing around is mostly around investments.

Brian Samson (14:24.274)
Interesting. You know, I think I read a stat the other day that Americans from the States, about 50 % own one single share of stock, you know, so and that’s just like the first level of public investing, right? Like investing in Microsoft and mutual funds and relatively safe companies. I don’t know if I’ve ever looked into that in Latin America, or maybe we could talk about Uruguay specifically.

What does that look like today? You know, that makes sense about the big investment was your house, your primary residence. What does it look like today? Is that, you know, 10 % own a public company, 50 %? You what does that look like?

Agustín Guerra (15:09.07)
it’s even much lower than 10%. There are different reasons. The first reason why it has been inaccessible for so long, because the barrier of entry was too high. Meaning, in order if you wanted to buy any stock in the US market, you need to perform an international swift transfer. And imagine that you save $100 per month, which is normal here. A lot of people say that or even less.

Brian Samson (15:11.612)
Okay.

Agustín Guerra (15:37.388)
then the swift cost of the transfer is going to be almost what you wanted to invest. So the entry barrier was super high and it’s still actually quite high. The fintechs nowadays, what they are trying to do is to bring that barrier lower to make it easier to the general public to access and also to teach the general public because people usually are quite risk adverse. That’s why they took mortgages on houses, right?

Yes.

Brian Samson (16:08.304)
Yeah. In a way, we’re kind of talking about like a Robin Hood for Latin America. Yeah, yeah, interesting. Well, tell us more about Vanguy. What are you building? What’s your vision and how far along?

Agustín Guerra (16:15.872)
Exactly.

Agustín Guerra (16:25.234)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. We co-founded the company five years ago, a bit over five years ago. I started my career in the local impingements and then I stayed in the fintech industry. We’re a team of four co-founders and we all come from very similar backgrounds. We got this opportunity, we saw this gap where in fintech it’s actually more important to understand the business than the technical part because engineers, there’s a lot of engineers everywhere.

but engineers that understand FinTech, not so many. And if you’re a company, a FinTech company, and you need a team of five engineers to build something across a couple of months, and you need to hire a company and train those engineers to understand what they are building, that’s really not efficient. You’re going to waste a bit of money and time from your team as well as need to train them. So we saw this gap to provide FinTech companies with consulting and engineering.

and development power. And that’s our mission. We’re a team of around 14 engineers, mostly based out of Montevideo, Uruguay, but also in Argentina. We’re a small market, so we need to seek talent somewhere else. And our mission is to help fintech companies, mostly payments and WealthTech, to be able to scale in an efficient way with engineers that they know what they are doing in the fintech area.

Brian Samson (17:48.976)
Yeah. Where do you usually come in? it like pre MVP post MVP after it’s, you know, in a scaling stage?

Agustín Guerra (17:58.018)
Yeah, so we have two types of clients. The first one is pre-MVP. It’s basically a couple, three, four co-founders that they have an idea. They’re trying to raise the money or they already raised the money. They want to build an MVP. It’s usually much easier to go to seek help for that, not to have an internal team because the risks associated are super big. So that’s what one type of client, together with the discovery process for them to understand what we are going to build.

and then we spend some months building it. And then the other one is companies that are scaling up, let’s say from 100 to 500 employees, and they are actively hiring, but it’s not easy to hire and it’s not easy to train the people that you hire because whenever you hire, that will take time away from your engineers to do the work to teach these people. So in those cases, we also come to help and boost the productivity of the engineering team.

Brian Samson (18:52.476)
Yeah. Are you usually building, are you providing engineers on like a time and materials basis that just understand FinTech or, you know, you’ll give like a fixed bid price, you know, so maybe if there’s other FinTech founders that are listening, they kind of understand your pricing model.

Agustín Guerra (19:18.828)
Yeah, usually time-themed materials is the most flexible way to approach it. It is the way that we prefer to approach and it’s usually also the cheaper one for everyone. Why? Because when you’re trying to build something from scratch, you really don’t know, even though you go through a discovery process, things change and the market evolves. And then if we come to a fixed price and things change, of course, we need to review the scope and that takes time and energy.

Brian Samson (19:40.367)
you

Agustín Guerra (19:46.68)
So the way that we prefer to work is we still do a rough estimation of how much we think it’s going to take. we understand that a group of founders trying to build something, they are not going to say, yeah, let’s go without even knowing if it’s going to be the scale, the magnitude of how much you’re going to spend. we still do a bold procrastination for them to know how much roughly this will cost. But then we prefer to work in a time-sensitive materials scheme. We can work on a fixed price if it’s very concrete.

and the requirements are very clear. We are doing that and it works sometimes, especially when companies are scaling up, they want this very specific thing built and the requirements are very clear. In that case, we can approach it with a fixed price, but in most cases, time for materials is the best, both for our clients and for us as well.

Brian Samson (20:33.798)
Yeah. Tell us more about the, the client location. are they mostly in the U S are they in Latin America? You know, what percentages help, help us kind of see that, especially with this hot new fintech world in Latin America.

Agustín Guerra (20:45.795)
Yeah.

Agustín Guerra (20:51.95)
Yeah, yeah. When we started the company, we thought that because of economy, clients in Latin America were not a good fit for us. Why? Because in our heads, we thought, well, they can’t hire locally, so why are you going to come to us? But we have come to the realization that that’s not the case. They still use our services. Still, nowadays, it’s mostly 40 % US, 40 %…

35 % US, 35 % Europe, and then the rest, Latin America. It’s a combination of Europe, US. When I say Europe, it’s mostly the UK, because in Europe, other countries, prefer people that speak their own language. It’s very strange for a German company to hire someone that doesn’t speak German, or any country, the rest in Europe. So it’s mostly the UK, the US, and then I’ll say a fifth of our clients come from Latin America.

Brian Samson (21:48.55)
Got it, interesting. With the US market, are you mostly working with New York and San Francisco companies, which is where there’s the highest concentration?

Agustín Guerra (22:01.356)
Yeah, yeah, it’s mostly San Francisco and New York. That’s cool.

Brian Samson (22:05.082)
Yeah, yeah. And then the engineers you said are mostly in Montevideo.

Agustín Guerra (22:09.87)
Yes, I will say nowadays 80 % of our engineers are in Montevideo and the other 20 % spread across Argentina. Argentina is very big, so they are spread across. The way we keep it this way, first of all, is these time zones. The time zone that we have in Argentina and Uruguay is very, very good to work with the US. We are just one hour away from Miami, a couple of hours away from New York.

A couple more hours from the west coast, but still it’s very manageable. So yes, our talent comes mainly from Uruguay, also significant parts from Argentina.

Brian Samson (22:47.056)
Yeah. mean, hiring is so important, you know, to get that right. And, you know, especially to properly support your customers. Tell us what you’ve learned, you know, about hiring and, you may, maybe, maybe we’ll start there and then we can dive deeper into the talent pocket.

Agustín Guerra (23:06.422)
Yeah, it has been a journey, a lot of learning over these last five years. Yes, hiring is a very part of our business because in order to provide the good service, we need good engineers. Of course, you can still do training, you can, but it’s very important to hire the right person. So it has been a bit of trial and error, to be honest, over the last five years. What to ask, what not to ask, when to ask it, when to ask for a

a technical test, one not to ask for a technical test. So it has been a lot of trial and error, but nowadays we have a very good hiring team. We have a constant pipeline, so that’s also very important. We don’t go to look for someone when we needed it for yesterday. We are constantly updating our pipeline. We knew candidates, we never stopped interviewing. So I think that’s also something very important because sometimes the client wants to…

You meet with the client, everything goes well in two weeks and they say, want to start tomorrow with a team of five people. And if you don’t have the bench of five people, hiring five people straight away, if you are at zero, it’s super difficult. So it’s very important to be constantly updating your pipeline with new strong candidates.

Brian Samson (24:17.498)
Yeah. What are some of the common technologies or tech stacks that you’d like the candidates you’re talking to to have?

Agustín Guerra (24:28.204)
Yeah, I would say in fintech we have seen two technologies as the main ones. When companies want to start something a bit quicker and a bit more agile, it’s usually anything around JavaScript, TypeScript, Node. That’s something very, very popular. It’s the one that we actually prefer if we can choose a technology. Also, in already more established companies, Java is also quite popular. It’s very robust. So would say…

We have been working with over 50 clients over the last five years, so have seen a lot of different platforms, and a vast majority is divided between JavaScript and Java.

Brian Samson (25:05.584)
Yeah. Now Uruguay is certainly a great place for talent, but like you said, it’s not nearly as big as Brazil and Argentina. How do you, how do you think about that as you recruit, you know, in Montevideo and outside?

Agustín Guerra (25:21.902)
Yeah, it’s a very small market. It’s a very talented and well-educated market. Here, education is free. So a lot of people, go to university, they have degrees, they are very smart, but it’s a very small market. We are already 3 million people. Argentina is 44 million people. So imagine the size difference. So I think, at least our company, we started in Uruguay, but then at one point we realized we want to keep hiring in Uruguay, but we have to

higher as well in Argentina to do both things in parallel. Because yes, the Italian pocket here in Uruguay is quite small. We are not a big country. So Argentina also is very similar to us when it comes to culturally. So basically for Argentinians and Ruanos, we can sit in the same room and it’s like the same. So that helps a lot as well.

Brian Samson (26:16.752)
Yeah, yeah, there’s nothing like passing a mate cup around as you’re. Yeah, there’s no no replacement. How about hardware? You know, I have memories of trying to smuggle, you know, MacBooks and all sorts of hardware into Argentina. What’s that like in Uruguay? you? Is it easy to get what you need and?

Agustín Guerra (26:19.947)
Exactly, yeah.

Brian Samson (26:43.346)
Maybe you could talk about the customs policies there.

Agustín Guerra (26:46.912)
Yeah, well, so first of all, it’s easy to get what you need because the market here is very open. You can import whatever you want, but it’s extremely expensive. Mainly two reasons. One of them is taxes. There is a lot of taxes whenever you import something. And also when you’re a smaller market and you’re importing just for your country, of course, it’s more expensive to import a smaller volume of things. So that makes things more expensive.

On one hand, you can get almost anything you want, but on the other hand, everything is quite expensive, especially technology. But yes, there’s no really work around around that. Maybe if you’re starting, you can fly to the US and bring a couple of computers. That’s good. But once you’re a established company and you need to buy three, four computers per month, you need to do it the right way. And you just need to buy the bullets. There’s no way around it.

Brian Samson (27:38.202)
Yeah, yeah. You know, a lot of my experience is going to be Argentina driven. But I remember, credit wasn’t really a thing that existed. You know, I couldn’t buy 10 laptops on credit. It’s all due, you know, right away. How about Uruguay? Is that does credit kind of exists, you know, when business to business transactions? Could you get it now and pay in 30 days?

Agustín Guerra (28:05.422)
Well, there’s a couple of ways you can do it nowadays. Here we have had installments with credit cards for a very long time, no interest installments. So almost anything that you buy, if you buy with a Uruguayan credit card in a Uruguayan store, you can pay for up to six installments. So that’s very handy. And then yes, there are business credit lines that come from banks, but with not the best interest rates, if I have to be honest. So they are not there.

mostly used as a last resort in case that you usually need something. But the easiest way and the cheapest way to get credit is just using credit cards with installments, which they are interest-free.

Brian Samson (28:47.526)
Yeah, yeah. As we start to wind the showdown a little bit, what are your predictions for 2026, especially on the FinTech ecosystem in Latin America? What do you see coming down the road?

Agustín Guerra (29:06.062)
I expect a lot of growth. It’s not slowing down. I remember some years ago people were talking that fintech is slowly dying. Now we see the total opposite. It’s growing faster and faster and faster. So I expect a lot of growth. I expect a lot of new Latin American fintechs to come around. And also what I expect the most, we have seen it with Nubank for example, Latin American fintechs serving other countries, meaning not doing things just for…

Latin American countries, but for the rest of the world. So I expect more disruptions that way.

Brian Samson (29:40.176)
Yeah. And then last question, we can have a little fun here. I know you don’t permanently live in Montevideo, but for those that are listening that maybe have it on their list to visit, what do they need to see? What do they need to experience? Best times of the year to go? Be the tour guide here for the listeners.

Agustín Guerra (30:05.826)
Yes, yes, definitely in summer. Please do not come in winter. It’s a very great city in winter. We get a bit of sun, but that’s it. And it’s cold. Remember that we are quite one of the most sun-tanned capitals in the world. So it is a subtropical climate. So you need to come in summer if you want warm weather. And I’ll say La Rambla. La Rambla is the promenade along the sea. We have a beautiful coastline, beautiful beaches going all the way up.

the border with Brazil. So if you want to come to Montevideo, just please come in the summer. You can get a car. Everything is very close. Those are the benefits of living in a small country. You can drive from corner to corner of the country in four hours. So there’s a lot to see, very nice beaches. yeah.

Brian Samson (30:53.03)
Yeah, I’ll always remember, I think I visited, it was a beautiful Sunday afternoon, and my wife and I walked the Rambla and we saw a lot of couples just walking and you know, I made it was a fun, fun observation, you know, where, like the guy would have one hand around his girlfriend, and the other hand around his matéthermus.

Agustín Guerra (31:18.604)
Yes, yes we have this habit of carrying our mates everywhere, especially the Rambla. Going to the Rambla to drink some mate and have some pastries is a must do, especially on very nice Sunday.

Brian Samson (31:24.775)
Yeah.

Brian Samson (31:33.594)
Yeah, absolutely. Well, Augustine, this has been a really fun conversation. Thanks for educating us so much on the Latin America fintech ecosystem. I learned a lot.

Agustín Guerra (31:45.39)
Thank you very much, Brian. was a pleasure, a very nice conversation and yeah, the best to you.

Brian Samson (31:50.564)
Excellent. Well, this is the Nearshore Cafe podcast. And podcast today was sponsored by Plug Technologies, PLUGG.Tech, great way to connect talent all over Latin America with growing US companies. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you next time.